SPEAKER_00: 0:02

And welcome to our podcast, Revelation Within on the Go. I'm Heidi Files McEpherson, one of your co-hosts, and the owner and lead coach of the RevelationWithin.org Ministry.

SPEAKER_01: 0:14

And I'm Christina Motley, your other host, for Revelation Within the Coach, and Heidi Parker in all things Revelation Within. And we are so happy to invite you to join us for this episode of Revelation Within.

SPEAKER_00: 0:37

Come on in. Oh my goodness. Welcome, welcome. We are so glad you're here. Yes. Oh, well, across the world, something happens as night falls. Yes, it is across the world, actually. It is across the world. We're gonna talk about it, and it's something that many of us participate in, perhaps. After the day is done, the the evening shadows have ebbed away into night. The dishwasher is running. You can hear the soft hum and swish. It's after the house is asleep. Yes, the family is asleep, and then even the dog has stopped asking anything from us.

SPEAKER_01: 1:25

Yes, it's true. This is exactly it. This is the picture you're painting. Yep. Can you imagine it in your mind? I've got it in my mind right now. Yes. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 1:34

It's then when the pantry or the freezer comes alive and starts speaking to us, luring us, calling our name. Maybe it's a whisper at first. Maybe it grows more insistent. Well, I know it grows more insistent. But but at first it starts as a whisper.

SPEAKER_01: 1:56

Well, I was just gonna say it's not just whispering by the time it gets to a certain point, at least for me, for many, many, many, many years. Sometimes it's downright persuasive. You know, like you deserve something. You've earned it. See, I'll be right back. Where is your reward? Oh, you held it together for everyone today. I did. You did everything that was asked of you and more. It was a hard day. Now come to me, all you who are weary and heavy laden, and I will give you chocolate.

SPEAKER_00: 2:45

Oh my goodness. I tell you what, that pantry or that freezer preaches a warped gospel. We know Jesus promises us real soul rest.

SPEAKER_01: 2:54

Yes, it does. And it's just super convincing. It makes followers, doesn't it? It made a follower out of me, that's for sure.

SPEAKER_00: 3:05

Well, for many years, Christina and I have coached women one-on-one and in classes and small coaching groups. And I know that we have certainly heard this quite a bit, quite probably hundreds and hundreds of times.

SPEAKER_01: 3:19

Hundreds and hundreds of times.

SPEAKER_00: 3:20

Yeah, have shared with us. And the way that they phrase it, and I've heard myself say this too, is I'm just rebellious. Well, I don't know. I think I I won't speak for Christina. I know she can speak for herself, but this has always kind of raised a red flag. And if I hear myself say it, it raises a red flag too. Um, because these are women who love the Lord, who serve others. They're in the Word of God, in inductive Bible studies, they know God, they love Him, and they love to worship Him. And it's almost like uh saying I'm just rebellious is a way of objecting to exploring it more deeply with God to figure out what's really going on. If I could just call it rebellious, then I sound well, dare I say, I sound almost godly. It's like I'm just rebellious. So, oh Heidi, you're not rebellious. You love Jesus so much. Oh, but I could always love him more. True.

SPEAKER_01: 4:25

Yeah, no, no, that's just that's exactly it. You know, for so many years, I would label myself in my mind. You know, I'd say, Christina, you're such a rebel. You just want to do your own thing. Why don't you grow up? You know, what is your deal? Uh, where's your spiritual maturity?

unknown: 4:44

I don't know.

SPEAKER_01: 4:45

That's right. Hate yourself in a positive change. Yeah, yeah. Oh, I know. I was an expert at it. I was an expert, but I think what you just said, Heidi, that that hit it on the head. I didn't really want to go deeper. I think I was afraid to go deeper. Why am I doing this? And and not only once, but again and again and again, week after week. Why am I doing this? What's underneath it? What are my needs? I think I was afraid to go there. I was certainly not inviting God in. Now, later, when I felt awful, when I felt too full, when I went to bed and didn't sleep well and got up in the morning full of shame, then I would say to God, Oh Lord, I'm so sorry. Can you fix me, fix me, fix me? Um, but I didn't really want to go to that place of what's really going on here. Why am I doing this? Um is it because I'm a rebel, or does it go deeper than that? Because I love the Lord. I don't want to rebel against him. Right. But that's kind of an almost like a defensive answer, I think.

SPEAKER_00: 5:54

Yeah, it really is. It's an excuse for not looking at it with honesty, really. I mean, I don't want to say that in a way that sounds condemning of anybody who calls themselves.

SPEAKER_01: 6:04

Certainly not. No, we're not condemning at all because we both have done it for a long time.

SPEAKER_00: 6:11

We're gonna talk today, then, about something that we're just gonna call it protest eating. And it's when eating at night, it's not about hunger, but it's about what many of us have called rebellion. And we're just gonna explore that a little bit. We want to suggest that it's not rebellion against God, per se. I mean, obviously, you take it to him, anything that we say on this show, anytime, feel free to take to God. I hope you will look at his word, see what it says. Exactly, yes. But maybe it's rebellion against being a good little girl or good little guy, whatever, or being the responsible one, maybe, or against perfection, or against pressure, or expectations, or even against our own self-imposed rules. Maybe it's protest in rebellion against all of those sorts of things.

SPEAKER_01: 7:09

Yeah. So my protest eating used to sound like nobody's gonna tell me what to do right now. This is my time, this is Christina time, um, you know, and not even me, not even me. I'm not even gonna tell myself what to do. I mean, it was like I wanted to experience agency or that ability to choose for myself. Like, I'm gonna do whatever I want. Everyone else is in bed, you know, even if that agency was three cookies and a spoonful of peanut butter. I mean, I just wanted that for myself.

SPEAKER_00: 7:49

Hmm, I can so relate. I remember the years as a young mom or a mom of young kids. I was never a young mom, but anyway, um, when the kids were finally put down for bed, and I thought, yes, arms overhead, I can clock out now and have my rendezvous with TV and snacks. Yeah, definitely. It sounds sounds crazy now, but oh, you bet I looked forward to that all day.

SPEAKER_01: 8:17

But it doesn't sound crazy to me, and it doesn't sound crazy to hundreds and hundreds of women that have come to us and that have this thing going on, this protest going on every evening or night, or maybe several times a week. So when my mother-in-law moved in with us uh years ago, she lived with us for a couple of years before she passed. She bought, you know, this package for TV where you can get all these channels and all these shows. And we don't have it anymore because it was expensive, but she paid for it. And so I had a couple of years where I really dove into this. So I would wait till all three kids were asleep in bed, no question about it. They were gone for the night, the dog was asleep, but mostly, and this this part is kind of embarrassing to say, but I'm gonna just say it anyway, in case anybody relates, I would go to bed with my husband, lay down with him under the covers, the whole thing, and wait for him to be very deeply asleep. And then I would slip out of bed, and we live in a house that was built in 1921, and so the floorboards are creaky and squeaky, but I knew exactly where to step. And I would step on the quiet floorboards and I would slip out, sneak out of the room, and go to my mother-in-law's little TV room that we had downstairs, and she had these big pink recliners, and I would sit in this pink decline recliner with food, and I would watch a show called The Property Brothers over and overnight. I mean, this was late at night, and I needed to I had to get up early. This was really hard on me that I did this now when I think back. But The Property Brothers is a show, in case you don't know, a show like many other shows where there's some kind of a house that's old, dilapidated, the floor plan is terrible, it's all a mess, it's outdated, things don't work here and there. And these young guys come in and they tear it all up. Um, one of them is in construction, the other in real estate. They tear it all up and they figure out how to make it into a sparkly, new, uh, absolutely amazing place to live. And now when I look back, I know why I was watching that. I didn't know. I thought, well, this is just a fun show. But when I look back, I realize I was feeling like that dilapidated house that had all the things wrong with it and was just kind of chaos and disappointment. That's how I was feeling about myself. And so I loved watching this show because I wanted to be sparkly and new. I wanted to be all fixed up, like those houses at the end of the show. And the end of the show was it was always good. It was always a great ending. Everybody was happy and laughing, everything was good. That's that's what I wanted. I would think thoughts like I took care of everyone else today. The kids, the kids at school, I was teaching for years at school, my mother-in-law, my husband. I even managed that one crisis that came up. I was patient and kind. You know what? I could even say that I was noble today. Now I'm gonna do what I want to do, and I'm gonna have ice cream with chocolate sauce and sprinkles and chocolate chips and whatever else I want in there. I want something to be just for me, just for me.

SPEAKER_00: 12:10

Yeah, there is such honesty in that. And, you know, I can I can relate, of course. But you know, think about it for a minute. And what does God really value? What's important to him? Honesty is really important to him. It is, and so being able to admit your struggle and your midnight rendezvous with the property brothers. Think of it this way half the psalms are holy protest poems. So true, so true. Yeah, Psalm 22 starts. This is just an example. My God, my God, why have you forsaken me? I need you right now. And yet the psalmist was clearly not feeling it. Psalm 6 says, I am weary with my groaning. And I don't know about you, but when I'm feeling that weariness and like sad and heaviness on my spirit, or what I've often called the weighted shadow, I I know that I I'm likely to protest that I'm feeling that way. Psalm 69, 3 says, I am weary with my crying out. So, yeah, we've got lots of holy protest poems in scripture. And and really think about it, all these human souls are saying, maybe even with our own souls, I am not okay right now. I am not okay. Not okay.

SPEAKER_01: 13:37

Absolutely. So, I mean, what do you think about this, Heidi? Why why does the protest show up at night? It seems like almost across the board, it shows up at night for people.

SPEAKER_00: 13:49

Yeah, definitely. I I do think decision fatigue is real. And and I don't know about others, maybe it's just me being in this decade of my life. But by 8 p.m., I tell you what, my executive function has clocked out. I it has even put on its pajamas and it is already watching Netflix. Absolutely. Nighttime is when no one gets to need anything from me. And there's no performance left, no audience left, and all the parts of me that I stifled all day suddenly get very loud. Bunch of screaming children inside my body.

SPEAKER_01: 14:33

Yeah. You know, I when I think about it, when I think back, for me, nighttime was the only time that I didn't have to be quote unquote on. You know, I was on all day as a teacher. I was on all day as a mom and as the one who picked up those other kids and brought them home, and with my mother-in-law and my husband, and just life. You know, I had to be on. I had so many roles. I was wearing so many hats at the time. This is when I started coaching with you, Heidi.

SPEAKER_00: 15:06

I was just thinking that. I remember when you told me you had a child in elementary school, a child in junior high, and a child in high school. And I'm like, wait, that's legal? Because that's a lot.

SPEAKER_01: 15:17

It was, and there was so much. Every day was so full. And eating in late at night with the property brothers was like a way of saying, okay, I get to choose something now. Not because my body needed food or some home improvement show, because I needed the voice.

SPEAKER_00: 15:47

Um and and this is where vulnerability matters because protest eating, we're so quick to disapprove of our own reaction to life, you know, like say I'm just a rebel. Yeah, but we almost do that in a condemning way. Um, but at the same time, we're just kind of muting the protest. We don't want to hear about it. It's almost like we don't want to explore that ground with the Lord, it's like it just shouldn't exist. Many of us were raised in a church environment or are in one right now, that it's not okay to protest. Any you've got to just keep going, you've got to keep going with the flow. But what if we were to adopt a more compassionately curious way of thinking of the protest that happens at night with our eating? What if we thought of it as a signal? Yes, yes, what if it's saying something like, I'm tired of being responsible? Yeah, I'm tired of being invisible. No, that's a real need. Those are real needs. I'm tired of adulting.

SPEAKER_01: 17:00

That's a real need. It is, especially on certain days. It's like, I can't do one more thing that's required of an adult.

SPEAKER_00: 17:09

I know. And it for me over the years, it's gotten earlier. My dark starts at three in the afternoon now. Oh, I just get tired of being good, or I need comfort, or I need help, or I need permission, or I need to not feel alone. I need to matter. And and so protest sometimes for me is something like one of those statements, or many of them all at once.

SPEAKER_01: 17:39

Well, and that's like I said, I mean, that's so real. It's so valid. We do have these needs, you know. We we have a need for rest, we have a need not to be on at some time in the day. We have a need for comfort, we have those are valid needs, and they are important. You know, for me, another way to put it is who's gonna take care of me? You know, is anyone hello out there? Is anyone taking care of me? And since it kind of really felt like no one was at that point, which may or may not have been true, you know. I mean, yeah, uh, God was taking care of me, but boy, it was a busy season. Um, so then you think, you know what, I'll take care of me. I'm gonna do it, and I'm gonna do it with food, with ice cream or whatever it is. Yeah. And somehow that's supposed to make it all better, and it doesn't.

SPEAKER_00: 18:39

One of my um favorite videos of all time that I've seen on YouTube is by this cray cray lady named Glosell. And in this particular video, she's having a battle with the ice cream that's calling to her from her freezer, and she acts the whole thing out with all this drama. It is really funny. If if you are interested, I mean, I don't know about her other stuff, I don't endorse her across the board or anything, but oh my goodness, this video of her, no, ice cream, I'm not going to eat you, I'm not going to buy into your tomfoolery and your shenanigans any longer. Like that's funny. It really is funny. Is yeah, uh, but she and she depicts the struggle that for many of us is very real at night. And and the ice cream continues to say, Glowzelle, Glosell, eat me, Gloselle.

SPEAKER_01: 19:37

I am so tasty. I mean, we can laugh about it, but honestly, yeah, it does feel like that sometimes.

SPEAKER_00: 19:46

Yeah, it really does. Somebody's around watching us and laughing at our struggle, but no, not really. But not really. Not really.

SPEAKER_01: 19:55

But you know, here's the thing God is not threatened by prayer. Protest.

SPEAKER_00: 20:01

You think not? That's awesome.

SPEAKER_01: 20:02

Yeah. I mean, I love this truth. This is this is truth. God is not threatened by our protest. Yeah. He's not. He's so not. Actually, the Bible is full of people protesting. I mean, remember Jonah? Jonah protested his assignment in a really big way. And there was a really big consequence, too. Um, Habakkuk protested injustice. David protested suffering. Elijah protested exhaustion. The Israelites protested everything from manna to Moses.

SPEAKER_00: 20:46

Yeah. And God didn't say to any of them, come back when you can be a little more polite about it all. He didn't do that.

SPEAKER_01: 20:54

He totally didn't. He didn't. So, I mean, what's really going on here? Under protest, there is longing. There is longing. Longing is real and important. Longing is valid. And it's all of us. We all have this. Longing for agency, longing to be able to choose, to have space, longing for comfort, longing for voice, longing for someone to notice, to be recognized, longing for rest. And I don't just mean physical rest. I'm talking about emotional rest, spiritual rest, all the different kinds of rest.

SPEAKER_00: 22:44

Yeah. And it's interesting how we so very often, if we sense a longing, we stifle it in ourselves and in others. And it just makes us really uncomfortable. Yes. I think to sit and wait and be still in the longing and get compassionately curious about it and ask God about it. Um 62.8 does say, pour out your hearts before him. And really, that means everything. Even the patty parts. Even the patty parts. Yes, the patty parts. And the sulky parts. And even the parts that feel rebellious.

SPEAKER_01: 23:20

You know, when I look back to that time, I mean, I had so many nights where I didn't want to pray because I didn't want God to take my coping mechanism away. I didn't want him to take it away. It felt like this is all I have. That's what it felt like, right? And how will I survive tomorrow without it? But then, of course, tomorrow comes and you're like, oh man, that was this is not for. This is not what I needed at all. This is the opposite. Now things are worse. But I mean, I wasn't ready to surrender whatever that food was at 9:30. Really, for me, it was more like 11 p.m.

SPEAKER_00: 24:01

I wanted him to leave that alone. Yeah, nothing like establishing boundaries for God, right? Yeah, you can come this far and no closer. Well, I didn't even realize I was doing that. Oh, yeah, no, I yeah, I just was speaking for myself, really.

SPEAKER_01: 24:18

Right. No, no, I know, I know you get it.

SPEAKER_00: 24:21

Yeah, well, I definitely do. The don't fix this, Lord, just let me have it prayer. I've prayed that too.

unknown: 24:28

Yes.

SPEAKER_00: 24:29

And admitting that really that spiritual vulnerability, it may not be rebellion against God, like we're so prone to label it. It may be rebellion against deprivation, against overwhelm, against silence, against loneliness, against any number of things.

SPEAKER_01: 24:47

Yeah, it's so, so true. Okay, so what does God do with rebels? Let's look, let's look in the Bible, let's look in his word and see what God does with rebels. We'll start with Peter. Okay, so we we all know the story of Peter. He actually denies Jesus three times. I mean, that's a pretty spectacular rebellion. Really? Spectacular. That's like a really big one, right? Yeah, yeah. And how does Jesus respond? Well, he doesn't wag his finger in Peter's face, he doesn't roll his eyes, he doesn't bang his head on the wall. He can see him doing that.

SPEAKER_00: 25:29

Bang, bang.

SPEAKER_01: 25:31

I know. No, what does he do? What does he do? What is written? What is recorded for us? He made breakfast on the beach for Peter. Wow. He restored him with a meal. I mean, there's no lecture, no punishment, just invitation and love. And breakfast. I love that. I that's that's one of my very favorite stories. I love thinking about this exchange between Peter and Jesus, and thinking about the look on Peter's face when he walked up. I mean, the look on his face. What was he thinking? What was he feeling? And here's Jesus with breakfast made on the beach, just smiling at him. Wow, that just blows me away.

SPEAKER_00: 26:26

That's beautiful. Another example of a rebel in scripture, of course, is the prodigal son. Yeah. And this guy didn't just rebel, it was loud. It was dramatic. And with a lot, yeah, with a lot of flair and stink. Right. Stinky do. Stinky do. But belovedness is what brought him home. The father doesn't say to him, Well, you really messed up. Let's review your mistakes. Number one of 265. Oh my gosh. Can you imagine? It's like I could just see him pulling the pencil from behind his ear and pulling out his clipboard and saying, Now you got a sign next to each one of these infractions. Initial here. No. In fact, the father he doesn't say anything about the mess up. He just runs to greet his son. He embraces his son. And then he has the calf slaughtered and they feast together. Wow. Wow. That is amazing, isn't it?

SPEAKER_01: 27:32

And then how about Jonah? I love it. Okay. So Jonah is sulking under a plant, that one part of the story. And this is a plant that God has actually grown for him so that he can have shade. I just love that. And then there is more to the story, but this part, you know, God doesn't say seriously after all of that. And instead, his response is asking questions. He actually opens a dialogue with Jonah and he draws Jonah out because he loves him so much. And I love that he grew that plant for him. That's that's another shade. No, God can do anything. I don't know why I'm surprised.

SPEAKER_00: 28:23

Right. And that's what God does with rebels or protesters. He doesn't shame them, he pursues them, he invites them, he uh he dialogues with them. I just it's awesome when we really get a grasp on what God is like and how he reveals himself to be in scripture. This is who he is.

SPEAKER_01: 28:44

Yeah, it is. So, really, what's going on here? What is nighttime protest actually asking for?

SPEAKER_00: 28:54

I think it's it's in part got to have something to do with. I want to exercise my free will, I want to make choices, that whole agency piece. I want permission, I want to not have to creep around and sneak for something that I want. And you know, comfort that actually comforts me, though, is what I really am after. Sometimes it might be I need recognition for just how hard I work today, I need reward for being so awesome today in the face of all kinds of obstacles. Yeah, yeah. Sometimes it might just be I need some space. Yes. Um, and then we always mention the upgrade tendency in our classes and coaching because almost anything seems like it's an upgrade when you have it with food. You know, thinking about like when people um have homes built in these little subdivisions or whatever, and they have the granite counter upgrade or whatever is current today instead of the formica. Do they even use formica? Yes, they do. Maybe another thing that the protest is asking for is relief from stress. Yes, yes. Oh, and another one, of course, is relief from pain for sure.

SPEAKER_01: 30:10

Yes, so true. And as I'll just say it again, those are real needs, those are things that we do need. It's important. We don't want to just sweep those under the rug. Yeah, um, so in Galatians 5, the fruit of the spirit is peace, not performance. Peace is what protest is begging for.

SPEAKER_00: 30:34

And you know, here's another big revelation really protest is not solved with willpower. I mean, think about it. How often are we likely to say, I just have to not do this nighttime eating anymore? Well, there's more to it than that. Am I committing to addressing the longing that is beneath my nighttime protest? Um, yeah, because it it is solved with presence, attending to the needs that I have, um, and doing so with honesty, um, giving myself a chance to speak with my voice, and maybe speaking to God about it is a good place to start. And you know, God needs us in all of the parts that we try to hide.

SPEAKER_01: 31:22

So if you're listening right now and you're realizing that your nighttime eating isn't about food, it's really about protest or longing or rebellion or exhaustion.

SPEAKER_00: 31:35

That's where community matters. Yes. Christina and I together want to invite you to consider a wonderful way of addressing this challenge, this challenge of evening protests that seems to only be satisfied, and it's not really satisfied by overeating at night when we're not hungry. But we have every year we have a group that gathers uh for five months, and it's an intimate group, just eight women in the group, in addition to Christine and myself. And this year we're calling it an escape circle. Really, it's a place for women who already know that this struggle at night, whether it's alcohol or food or going onto Amazon and pressing buy now again and again, it's bigger than just those tendencies. It's for women who don't need new rules. They want a place where honesty is allowed and welcomed, where protest has a language, and we can talk about the longing underneath it and where Jesus is invited into all of those parts that that are involved, all of it, not just the polished ones. So if you're intrigued at all by that and you think that that might be part of your healing journey, check out team lifeisgood.com forward slash protest. Team Lifeisgood, all one word dot com forward slash protest to learn a little more. And then we plan to start probably around February 19th. Yeah. And really community is one of the solutions to this, to have a safe place where we can be honest about the longing and the struggle. It's it's gonna be amazing.

SPEAKER_01: 33:21

Yeah, I'm really I'm excited. I'm looking forward to it. Okay, so let's go ahead and pray for a minute. Um, Lord, for every woman who protests at night, meet her in the longing underneath. Yes, Lord Jesus, meet her in the need to be able to choose for comfort, for permission, for love, for whatever it is that she needs.

SPEAKER_00: 33:48

Yes, Lord, and remind her she is beloved in her obedience, but also in her protest or in her rebellion. Yes, the longing is blessed, the protest is blessed in her discipline and in her desire. Yes, please draw her nearer to you than ever before and speak peace to her tired soul, I pray. Jesus' name. Amen.

SPEAKER_01: 34:14

Oh, we're so glad you've been here today. Thank you for joining us. Yes, thank you for joining us. And we would love to invite you to our next podcast episode of Revelation Within. See you next time. Bye for now.