Why Share The Ministry Story

SPEAKER_03 0:02

Hi, and welcome to our podcast Revelation Within on the Go. I'm Heidi Files, the other person, one of your hosts, and the owner and the host of Revelation Within.

SPEAKER_00 0:14

And I'm Christina Folly, your other host, also Revelation Within. And Heidi's partner is all things revelation within. And we are so happy to invite you to join us for this episode of Revelation Within.

SPEAKER_03 0:39

Well, today we're gonna have story time. We want to tell you the story of Revelation Within. You know, where did this ministry come from? Yes. Is the connection with Thin Within? Why did the name change? What has stayed the same? And what has God invited us to see differently over the years?

SPEAKER_00 1:05

That sounds like a good story. Some of our listeners have known Heidi and this ministry for many, many, many, many, many, many years. All right, all right, all right. Um, I came quite a bit later, so there's a whole history there. Um, others found Revelation Within recently and may not know that its roots reach back several decades, actually, all the way back to the 1970s. And some of you may have heard the name Thin Within before and wondered: you know what? Is Revelation Within the same ministry? Is it something completely different? Was Thin Within wrong in some way? Was a change needed? I mean, what's why? What's going on? So today we want to tell you that story honestly and tenderly, and it is a good story.

SPEAKER_03 2:03

Well, this isn't gonna be a perfectly detailed historical timeline because it's just not. There are so many chapters, so many people, and so many stories, and many, many ways that God has worked over the years and continues to do so, of course. And so instead, we kind of are gonna share like the heart of the journey. It's a story of God meeting people in their struggle with food and body image, but it's a story really of genuine freedom and incredible transformation. Yes, it is, but it's also a story of continued learning. Always, always, yes, always. God has been faithful to reveal and refine and correct and deepen and redirect. He's done all of that. All of it too. Yes. Revelation within didn't happen because everything that came before it was wrong, though. We want to just clear that up at the beginning. Nope, nope, nope. It grew from observing what God was actually doing as hundreds of women had come to us when we operated as Thin Within. So, yeah, there you go. It's it's it's really identifying what we have seen with our eyes and heard with our ears and experienced from the lives of those who've come here.

SPEAKER_00 3:34

Yes.

The Thin Within Beginning

SPEAKER_00 3:36

Okay, so Heidi, let's go back to the beginning. Where did Thin Within come from?

SPEAKER_03 3:41

Yeah. Well, and we do have a podcast episode that tells everybody the origins of Thin Within if they want to hear that. But the roots of Thin Within, they do go back to the 1970s. And that was uh a season in history when most programs that helped people manage their weight in some way relied super heavily on external rules. Um, people were often told exactly what to eat, how much to eat, when to eat, what foods were good, and what foods were bad. I mean, talk about prescriptive.

SPEAKER_02 4:15

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 4:16

But starting in 1975, Thin Within or two ladies who became known as Thin Within, Judy and uh Joy, um, together, they were partners, they offered something that felt radically different. Well, it didn't just feel radically different, it was radically. It was, yeah, it sure was. Yeah. Rather than this was before the intuitive eating movement, you know, quote unquote intuitive eating. Um, rather than following a prescribed food plan, the participants in Thin Within were encouraged to just check in with your body and see what the signals are. Are there any natural signs of physical hunger and physical satisfaction that you can recognize and honor? The basic eating boundary was simple. Begin eating when you're hungry. What? It still sounds so revolutionary, uh, at least to me, because people are still swept up in the dieting thing. Um, and then you stop eating when you're physically satisfied. Ta-da!

SPEAKER_00 5:23

And you know what? That was a powerful shift for a lot of people.

SPEAKER_03 5:28

It yeah, it there's no doubt, it really was. And for someone who had spent years counting and measuring and weighing and restricting or following complicated food rules, the idea that my body, my body could communicate what it needed and I could trust that was truly liberating. And and it really invited people to slow down a little bit. It challenged the belief that that we need an outside authority to control every eating decision. I mean, nothing else in our biology do we do that with.

SPEAKER_00 6:16

Well, as a as a former teacher, that does ring true. And you were a teacher too, so you know.

SPEAKER_03 6:25

Um, but what it did was it encouraged people to reconnect with physical hunger and satisfaction. And those are signals that many of us aren't always attuned to, and many people at that time had ignored them for years or feared them or overridden them. Even now we have things happening in this world of um trying to get to a place of peace with food and eating that include shutting down your hunger signal. Um that's I mean, to somebody like me who found freedom and recognizing and you too, Christina, of course. Absolutely recognizing hunger and satisfaction as being happy, good things, yes, amazing what's going on right now. But anyway, for many people, including me, God used the boundary of are you hungry? Eat. Are you not hungry? Stop eating. He used those boundaries powerfully.

Hunger And Satisfaction Boundaries

SPEAKER_00 7:25

Wow, big time. Okay, Heidi. So tell us about your own introduction to this message. Tell us about that part of the story.

SPEAKER_03 7:34

Well, I first encountered the message, I guess you could say, through a book called Thin Again, which was actually an earlier version of what later became known now as Hunger Within. Um, and that book changed my life dramatically. Amazing book. Amazing book. Yes, yes. So if you're gonna look for it, look for Hunger Within. Um, and it's basically rooted in the idea that we can trust God. He's made our bodies, he's amazing, and so our bodies are fearfully and wonderfully made. Um, I had spent years struggling with food, body image, shame, shame, shame, and more shame, control, and the hope that changing my body would somehow change everything else. Yes, but the book went beneath the surface. It didn't merely address what or how much I was eating, absolutely not. It explored the hungers, the different hungers beneath my eating. And so, what was I truly longing for when I grabbed for more food when I wasn't hungry? What was I trying to satisfy? Where had food become for me comfort or protection or reward or escape or relief? And where was I looking to food, or to a smaller body? That's another thing too. That I had to I had to see. I was looking to thinness to provide something that maybe only God could truly give to me. Wow, thin with a thin again blew my socks off.

SPEAKER_00 9:12

Oh wow. So it wasn't simply the hunger satisfaction boundaries that affected you. It there was much, much more.

SPEAKER_03 9:20

Oh yeah. Those boundaries, of course, were extremely helpful to me, but the deeper message captivated me, and that's where I camped for quite a while. Physical hunger was real, but there were also emotional and spiritual hungers as well. And I began to recognize that food could temporarily soothe an ache without truly satisfying the need beneath it. So, I mean, and I bet there's somebody listening who can identify with that. Oh, yes, yeah. And so the book um Thin Again, now called Hunger Within, invited me to bring those deeper longings to God directly. And that totally changed like night and day, the direction of my life. I began, this is gonna sound crazy, but I began um this was this was in what, gosh, like 1990 something. Uh, and I began writing devotionals that paralleled the chapters in the book that I was reading. Um, and I wasn't writing them because I had figured everything out, not at all. I was writing as someone who was being changed by what she was learning, and I was processing material. I often process material by writing about whatever it is. I was sharing with an email list what I was processing through writing, and people got those in their email every day.

SPEAKER_00 10:52

Oh, I wish I had been one of them. But no, my time was later. So that writing eventually led to a very important relationship that really kind of started everything.

SPEAKER_03 11:06

Yeah, it definitely did. Judy Halliday um is one of the founders of Thin Within, and she's an author of the material She Found My Devotionals online that paralleled her. That's amazing. I love that. Now, she had written the secular Thin Within book um in 1985. The book that I'm referring to was after Judy became a Christian and God led her to put it all in, you know, all the principles she had learned and so much more into the book Thin Again, which is now Hunger Within. Um, anyway, she found my devotionals online and I didn't know it at the time, but she didn't write full manuscripts. She would edit them and she used collaborators to help her write the material. So it still amazes me when I think about it because it is amazing. Yeah, it's kind of everybody's dream. Well, not everybody's, but whoever wants to it was my dream.

SPEAKER_00 12:10

It was your dream for sure. I mean, what an incredible compliment that she found you and reached out and

Heidi’s Breakthrough With Hunger Within

SPEAKER_00 12:18

was so impressed and touched by your writing. Your writing resonated with her in such a way that she, even though she didn't know you at all, she was like, Hey, will you collaborate with me? Yeah. I mean, it's amazing. It's so such a beautiful, beautiful thing.

SPEAKER_03 12:36

It was, it still blows my socks off. She did. She reached out to me and asked me to collaborate with her and her husband, uh, Arthur Halliday, on a new book that became the Christian version of Thin Within. Yeah, and that was published in 2000. That opportunity was enormously meaningful for me. And it my life continued to take a trajectory I never imagined. Um, here was the author of a book that had changed my life inviting me to participate in the next expression of the message, which was incredible. I mean, just incredible. It still humbles me.

SPEAKER_00 13:19

Um, tell us a little bit more about that season, Heidi.

SPEAKER_03 13:23

Oh, it when I look back now, it's just, it's like a dream in some ways. The thing that had captivated Judy about my writing was she felt like I was in her head, like I had captured what she wanted to say. And, you know, if you're gonna have somebody collaborate on a book with you and they're gonna do most of the writing of the words, and you're just gonna kind of edit and yeah, that's a really good place to be. But it felt like God had woven together so many threads. Um, there was my personal struggle with weight and eating, and there was, of course, the way the material impacted me. Um, forgiveness became such a really big issue because of abuse in my childhood relative to food and eating. Of course, there was my love of writing, there was my longing to be an encouragement to others, and especially with the word of God. Oh my goodness. My my dream was to be able to share both speaking and writing uh from the word of God to encourage other women. I wanted so desperately to encourage them, and then I had a growing passion for helping people experience freedom from shame and food obsession. I mean, and then and then obsession with exercise. Oh my goodness. Anyway, I had the privilege during that season of working so closely with Judy and participating in a ministry that had already touched so many lives. Yes, and I got to teach classes and lead groups and write material and speak and coached one-on-one and trained leaders and and I walked with people through some very vulnerable places in their lives. Yes, and I got to see women daring to eat foods that they had feared for years. Um, I and really when you think about that, it is amazing. It is we heard about one lady in one of our classes just yesterday. It was incredible that she enjoyed a donut for the first time in years. Yes, um, and she could do it with freedom, knowing that it's not the food that causes the problem, it's what we do with it and where that goes. Anyway, I got to see people step away from rigid plans. I myself had stepped away from rigid plans, and I saw participants begin to recognize the difference between physical hunger and that deeper hunger of the heart, a longing that is really only satisfied by turning to the Lord. Oh my goodness. I saw people experience God's grace in places where they had only previously known judgment. Ah, that was a real fruit. And I just I love I love that God has given that to me. That's that's uh there were real breakthroughs. Yeah, and there still are. I mean, I've been floored at how many people have started our Transforming Grace class. You know, it's discovering peaceful eating. And in this current cohort, they've been sharing breakthrough upon breakthrough. Yes, yes. And these are people whose lives are deeply changed. And I just backing up again to Thin Within, I don't ever want to speak about the history of Thin Within

Devotionals That Led To Collaboration

SPEAKER_03 16:55

in a way that dishonors the amazing good that God has done and that He's done in my life and in the lives of hundreds of other people, maybe even thousands of other people.

SPEAKER_00 17:07

Yeah, I don't doubt it's definitely thousands because there is a ripple effect. Yeah, um, it's not just the person you see right in front of you, it's people in their lives. It ripples all the way out. Absolutely. We have we have no idea what the impact really is.

SPEAKER_03 17:22

Well, and it's worldwide, is the thing. I remember when I when we were still thin within, um, years ago, when I was teaching classes online, I received a care package and it had these beautiful designs in it, including a little pillow cover that that I mean it was just it's a treasure. I still have it, it's just been used very well. Anyway, and it was from a woman in Germany who loved the message and who was ministered to by it.

SPEAKER_00 17:54

Yeah, it is, it is everywhere, which is just so amazing. Um, so what you just said about the history of Thin Within, I mean, that is really, really important. You know, sometimes a name change can sound like a rejection of everything that came before it, but that's not at all what happened here.

SPEAKER_03 18:17

No, no, that's not our story. Thin Within gave us so many important foundations, and it helped us recognize that eating can become disconnected from the body. Many people had just never, and and from the Lord, it's like people did what I could talk to God about this? Are you kidding me? Right. Oh, yes, of course. By encouraging becoming aware of your physical body and its signals, and the false signals that we sometimes consider hunger that aren't, you know, and the the need not to throw every false signal or hunger of any kind, just physical food, because that sounds like a good plan, you know, we need to step back a bit. Um, it in Thin Within helped expose the emptiness of seeking like lasting fulfillment through food or weight loss or whatever it might be. It invited us to bring our need for healing to God and our deeper longing to God. I mean, it's huge. It changed external legalism around food. There was nobody teaching anything like this at the time. And even since then, there have been others that have popped up with ideas. Um, but I mean, I remember one that was sort of a hungerfulness approach that would say you have to have three growls before you can eat. That's still legalism. That's still legalism. Yes, and the fact that Thin Within emphasized grace rather than punishment or condemnation. And that's huge. And and of course, it created a community, a worldwide community. Some of us met online and in person, um, where people could speak honestly about struggles that they they often had felt like they had to keep hidden. All of this has been precious gifts that that God has given us, and God has used each one, and he continues to use them, and that's all because of thin within.

SPEAKER_00 20:20

Yeah, well, it's because of God as well. It's really because of God through Thin Within. That's where it all began. Um, so when we're looking back, we're not saying we would never say that was all wrong. Absolutely not. No, God had a plan, God still has a plan, and he's working it all out in the most beautiful way.

SPEAKER_03 20:43

Yeah, God met us in that place and he continued to lead us. There is a difference, really, there's a difference, a big difference, between rejecting the past and inviting him to refine what we understand. So it's like healthy growth doesn't require us to despise earlier seasons. We can't, no, and we don't at all honor what was good and still acknowledge what needed to develop and what will yet develop. See, that's the thing, is is many of us who struggle with food eating, we struggle with all or nothing mentality. The dieting industry taught us that. And and we need to break free of that for a million reasons, not the least of which is our idea of what is right and what is wrong. Sometimes we stay stuck in black and white thinking about that too. And so what we have taught for decades can feel like the only way to really teach it unless we're ready to have our whole paradigm shifted by God, you know, and and have Him show us because nothing is worth clinging to except Him.

SPEAKER_02 21:57

Let's cling to Him.

SPEAKER_03 22:00

We can be grateful for what we knew then and still be responsive to what God is showing us now.

SPEAKER_00 22:09

Okay, so looking back, at what point did you begin sensing that the message needed greater depth or clarity?

SPEAKER_03 22:19

Well, and that's where it gets, I don't know, challenging to describe, but it happened gradually. Um, physical hunger and physical satisfaction for most people seemed very clear. Not everybody. Trauma can complicate that. Um, for many people, those boundaries alone brought welcome structure, really. Um, am I hungry? No. Okay, well, don't eat. Am I hungry? Yes. Okay, we'll eat. Right. But over time, I began noticing that even a simple boundary, at least for me, could become another rigid rule, believe it or not. Yeah. Instead of counting calories or points, someone might begin monitoring hunger and satisfaction with the same fear

The Fruit And The Worldwide Ripple

SPEAKER_03 23:05

and perfectionism. Am I hungry enough? Did I stop soon enough? Was that bite outside my boundary? Did I ruin the entire day just now? Was I obedient or disobedient? The language changed some, but sometimes the underlying pattern of control and condemnation remained. Ah.

SPEAKER_00 23:28

Yeah, for sure. I was definitely in that place for a while. Me too. I got there too. I just kind of turned it into a diet, really, when I first started. Before I knew you, Heidi. Um, so I mean, really, someone could technically leave diet rules behind while still relating to herself like a dieter. Absolutely.

SPEAKER_03 23:49

Exactly. A person could stop following a food plan and still be driven by fear.

SPEAKER_00 23:54

Right.

SPEAKER_03 23:55

She could become hyper-vigilant about bodily signals to the point of being self-absorbed in a way. Um, and that's not going to be God's plan. I really don't think so. She could treat hunger like permission that she had to earn. Okay, so I can't eat until I have earned the right. How can I earn the right? I mean, it just can get really the simplicity of the message. I don't say easy, um, but the simplicity of the message can get muddied when we start making additional, I don't know, uh uh amendments to it. Um, she could treat satisfaction like a test she has to pass.

unknown 24:34

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 24:34

If she eats when she's not physically hungry, she can interpret that experience as a moral failure. If she weighs more than she should, she can uh interpret that as a moral failure. And and I say should because she thinks I should weigh X. I mean, who really told each one of us how much we should weigh? Who tells us that? That hunger-satisfied boundary that really was intended to serve her could become a measuring stick used against her. And I landed in that camp for a season myself.

SPEAKER_00 25:11

Well, and that doesn't mean hunger and satisfaction are unimportant, but really what we do, what we teach, what God wants to do in us goes so much deeper. That's just kind of the tip of the iceberg.

SPEAKER_03 25:26

Absolutely. We remain so dependent on him and his leadership.

SPEAKER_00 25:32

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 25:33

And so while we continue to encourage awareness of your physical hunger and physical signals, physical satisfaction, and your body's feedback, it really needs to be inviting God into it, inviting God in and leaning on what he leads you to do. We don't want to treat those signals as the entirety of Holy Spirit-led eating, because my body can deceive me, and it has. Yes. A signal is important, but it is not God, and I don't want to bow to my bodily signals. Um, physical hunger can inform my decision, but it's not the only factor that can ever matter.

SPEAKER_00 26:14

Right.

SPEAKER_03 26:15

So, I mean, of course, there may be medical needs, there may be medication schedules. Maybe you have a medication that you take that keeps you from being hunger, or maybe it makes you hungry. Um, illness, trauma history, trauma history impacts hunger signals a lot. Um, travel, shared meals, nourishment needs of or other circumstances. We may have other circumstances to consider. So we need wisdom and we need compassion. We need a relationship with the Lord, and we need room to listen and notice and discern and learn. Look and learn too. Yes. So, what else became clearer

When A Simple Boundary Becomes Rigid

SPEAKER_03 26:55

over time, Heidi? Well, I became increasingly convinced that the deepest transformation could not merely come from changing my eating behavior because there's so many ways that I had changed my eating behavior, and I'd lost a lot of weight before. A lot of weight before I was my Weight Watcher's star pupil. Um, and for many reasons, and then had an injury that sidelined my exercising, over exercising, and gained a lot of weight back. Um, eating is really, or physical form is often just the visible part of the struggle. Yes, right. But beneath it, our thoughts, our beliefs, our wounds, we have fears, unmet needs, identity questions, body shame, perfectionism, and and then years and years of dieting and self-condemnation.

SPEAKER_00 27:50

Yes.

SPEAKER_03 27:51

Someone could become really skilled at staying inside an eating boundary while remaining tormented in these other ways. Absolutely. She could stop eating at satisfaction, but still believe she's unacceptable. Ooh. She could eat only when hungry and still spend the day comparing herself with other women. She could be stellar at eating between the parameters of hunger and satisfaction and still stand outside her closet with all the clothes pulled out on her bed that she's been trying on before going to church. She can appear successful while remaining consumed with the desire to shrink or fix or escape her body. Yeah, in there too.

SPEAKER_00 28:38

Yes, me too. So the behavior might change without the heart experiencing freedom.

SPEAKER_03 28:46

Right. And that's what really began to concern me. Um, enough people that we knew of were changing the way they were eating their external behavior, but still carrying with them fear and shame and condemnation. And and sometimes they were losing weight and all of the things they hoped to, um, but yet they weren't free. Sometimes changing the behavior was what people were looking to to establish their worth and their value and their identity. And and so, I mean, like I followed my boundaries today. I ate between hunger and satisfaction, so I'm good. I ate when I wasn't hungry, so I'm bad. It no longer was it I ate a cupcake, so I'm bad, or I ate a salad, so I'm good. Uh, but other things like I lost weight, so I'm succeeding. I'm successful. My body changed in an unwanted direction, so I am failing. No, no, we don't this isn't freedom. The focus could remain on self-evaluation and self-deprecation and self-condemnation rather than on a relationship with God. And so over time, he kept drawing my attention toward what we can do with this, and I needed this, and it was mind renewal. Romans 12, too became increasingly central. Do not conform any longer. Yeah, me too. Do not conform any longer to the pattern of this world, which focuses on external behavior. That the Bible doesn't say that part, but be transformed by not by a food plan, not by an eating plan, not by tying yourself to a chair so you won't eat, um, but by the renewing of your mind. Yes, God promises to work transformation in us, and renewing our mind is the way we participate with Him. Yes. We begin noticing what we are thinking and identify lies. Some of them we've been telling ourselves for decades, like my worth and value have to do with my size. No, that's not truth from God's perspective.

SPEAKER_00 31:10

Right.

SPEAKER_03 31:10

So we want to identify lies and then we per we practice telling ourselves the truth again and again. We take our thoughts captive and we learn to recognize the difference between God's voice and the voice of accusation. And since God has no condemnation for us, we're not going to do a practice, self-condemnation, that He doesn't endorse. No, we want to practice thinking his thoughts after him. Yay!

SPEAKER_00 31:44

That's what changed my life completely. I can't even imagine where I would be without the renewing of the mind. God has done such a work. Oh my gosh. What you just described, Heidi, was this part of the shift from thinking primarily about eating to thinking more broadly about discipleship? Very much so.

SPEAKER_03 32:08

You know, God didn't make us with compartments to keep separate from each other. So my eating and the way I think about food and eating in my body, that's gonna impact everything. And I know it did because I remember I was on the worship team all my uh Christian life. I've been involved in being on the team. And when I told somebody I could no longer be on the worship team because my body was not a reflection of me going to God to have my challenges and heartache met by him, my body was reflecting that I went to food for everything. And but you know what? That's a lie from the pit. That is not God's standard. If we carry extra weight, that is not something that disqualifies us from an upfront ministry. If you believe that about yourself or others, and I know many people struggle with that, invite God to show

Mind Renewal Over Behavior Control

SPEAKER_03 33:10

you what is true, because that's not it at all. I began to see that our relationship with food and with our body couldn't be separated from our relationship with God. It wasn't just an eating problem to solve. Our society says it is. You know, don't conform any longer to the pattern of this world. That one pattern is if you're overweight, you have a food and eating problem. So stop eating so much or exercise more. That's the world's solution. But really, it's a stronghold, a belief. It's it's not about the food, it's not about your weight. It's what are you believing? What are you going to when times are tough or when you're emotional, or when you're sad and melting down about something? So I see this as a discipleship opportunity. What do I believe about God when I'm anxious? Where do I turn when I need comfort? What do I believe my body says about my worth? What is my choice right now? Saying I believe right now, and what do I believe will make me more acceptable? How do I respond when life doesn't go as I hope? Right. How do I treat myself when I struggle? And here's here's a really good question that we we really want to find that answer and stay camped on it. Am I living from my identity in Christ? Or am I trying to construct an identity from my appearance or my performance or the approval of others? I mean, these are really spiritual and profound and important questions. Yes, and they apply way, way beyond food. Right.

SPEAKER_00 34:54

Way beyond that.

SPEAKER_03 34:56

They do. The same patterns that show up through over-scrolling on my phone or overspending money I don't have, overworking, drinking alcohol, overdrinking, people pleasing, controlling others, hiding, not you know, isolating, or any number of other counterfeit comforts. They are all impacted in the same, and they can be cured and healed and encouraged to um to leave my life by mind or nool. Food is just one place where the pattern becomes visible, right? The invitation is broader, it's not just about food and eating. Right. Will I turn toward God when I've lost my job? When my husband is has a wandering eye, will I allow God to meet me in my actual need? Will I receive comfort from him? Will I believe what he says about me? And he says a lot of things about you and not, yes. Yes, will I trust him enough to release the false illusion of control?

SPEAKER_00 36:09

Wow. Okay, so what about body image? Body image also became a more central part of the ministry's message. Tell us about that a little bit.

SPEAKER_03 36:19

Yeah, for many years, body dissatisfaction was treated almost as a given. And of course, we wanted our bodies to change or shape shift, as we have called it, becoming smaller seems like it would be better. And of course, weight loss would be celebrated as evidence that the approach you're choosing is working. But even when we emphasized grace, and we still do, of course, many of us still carry deeply rooted assumptions about body size, yes, about beauty, about discipline and worth. And the desired outcome was often still, when

Food As Discipleship And Identity Work

SPEAKER_03 36:55

push comes to shove, a thinner body. And that is um, you know, that's trouble for many of us. You know, it's something visible, and and God says in his word, in numerous places in the New Testament, let us fix our eyes not on what is seen, but on what is unseen. For what is seen is temporary and what is unseen is eternal. Fix your eyes on things above, not on earthly things. That's in a different passage. I mean, wow, we we don't want to add a quote Christian message or Christian version to the worldly message that your body is the be all and all. What size is it? What shape are you in, and all of that, and that is what decides what you're worth and how you should be hired, and if somebody should open a door for you or not. I mean, I've been all sizes and shapes, and I have been treated all different ways and that was connected with it, and it's really sad. We don't want to promote that.

SPEAKER_00 37:55

No, well, and those assumptions are so deeply woven into our culture, we might not even recognize them. We not might not even realize that they're there, but they are and they are powerful.

SPEAKER_03 38:10

Yeah, so we may call something a health concern when it is really fear of judgment, or we may call something stewardship when it is partly self-rejection. Right. Yikes. Yeah. We may say we want freedom while secretly believing freedom will only be possible after our body changes, right? Yes, yeah. So God began inviting us to examine those assumptions, and that's what we needed to do. Um, could we receive our body as part of his good creation? Could we care for the body without making it an idol? Could we respond wisely to health concerns without using shame? A lot of people say shame is a motivator, but has it ever really worked to sustain any kind of positive change? No, could we pursue strength or mobility, nourishment, rest, all those good things, medical care, without declaring war on ourselves? God doesn't want us to be at war with ourselves. No, could we believe that a person's body size does not determine her spiritual maturity, her discipline, her beauty, or value?

SPEAKER_00 39:23

Wow. And you know what? Those are the questions that really changed the ministry.

SPEAKER_03 39:29

They did, and not that Judy Halliday never asked those questions, I'm sure she did. Um, but it was definitely not the season that God had in mind for us. So um, yeah, those questions changed the ministry a lot. We became more attentive to the language we used, which I think is important. Were we unintentionally reinforcing body shame? And I think that was, you know, and I'm sorry to everybody who I ever did that with. Um it was unintentional, and I didn't yet know that. Um, it was something I needed to be aware of. Were we promising or implying a body outcome we couldn't guarantee, nor should we even? I mean, that's tricky. Were we celebrating smaller bodies in a way that suggested the larger bodies are the problem? Were we dishonoring God by doing so? Were we inviting people toward freedom, really? Or simply offering a more spiritual way to pursue weight loss? Um, those aren't easy questions, and they weren't for us, but they were necessary. They were necessary. So, Christina, you've also lived through much of this with me. What have you noticed?

SPEAKER_00 40:46

Well, one of the things that has meant the most to me is the increasing emphasis on God's presence, on God, God's involvement in this whole thing in our lives and our hearts and our minds. There can be such pressure to get everything right, you know, to eat correctly, to stop at the just the right moment, right? To renew our minds in just the right way, to try to be perfect, you know, to use every tool that we have consistently. I mean, that's that's not the goal. The goal is not to become impressive practitioners of some kind of method. Not at all, not at all. The goal is a relationship with God, and hopefully we are constantly sending people back to the Lord again and again and again. That is our our core. The tools serve the relationship, the boundaries serve the relationship, the practices serve the relationship. So when we forget that, you know, even good things can become another form of striving. That is true. Yeah, I mean, we just want to make sure that this is about God and how He sees us and who we are because of Him. I've also appreciated the growing gentleness of the message. There's been a huge shift, I would say, especially in the just the last couple of years, of a gentleness. Gentleness does not mean pretending our choices don't matter. That's not what it's about. And it's certainly not about avoiding truth, not at all. But it means that we can face the truth in the presence of love and plenty of grace. You know, we can look honestly at an eating experience without attacking ourselves. I mean, how many, how many of our ladies, probably 99.9%, come come to us with so much shame. And they have been attacking themselves for their whole lives. And that's how I came too. And so they feel very beaten down when they come, very beaten down. And so we want to be gentle and loving and compassionate.

Body Image Without Shame Or Idols

SPEAKER_00 43:05

And of course, God models that constantly for us. We can acknowledge that we turn to food, to comfort, without saying, Oh my gosh, I'm hopeless. Forget it, I'll never get this. You know, we can notice that we ignored our body without deciding I'm a failure. No, that's not true. We can ask, what happened? What was I feeling? What was I believing? What did I need? Where was God inviting me? What might I practice next time? That kind of compassionate curiosity creates room for learning. And we want to be that kind of community where people feel safe, that they they're okay. You know, they're okay with us because they're okay with God.

SPEAKER_03 43:53

Yeah. And we often say that condemnation shuts down learning. It really does. It does. And if we don't recognize Recognize that we're gonna keep trying the same old ways of condemning ourselves without any progress, except to feel condemned. And that's not good. When I'm busy prosecuting myself, you know, guilty. What's the sentence? Then I'm not available to hear what God wants to show me.

SPEAKER_00 44:20

Yeah. Definitely. So, so true. Okay, so let's switch gears for a second and talk about the name.

Why Thin Within Became Revelation Within

SPEAKER_00 44:29

We have a lot of people asking about the name, actually. Why did Thin Within become Revelation Within? What happened there?

SPEAKER_03 44:37

Well, there's no doubt that Thin Within had history and recognition, but it also carried a message that we right now can no longer fully support. The word thin placed body at the center. Yes. Even when I mean, I don't think that was ever Judy Halliday's intention, but we found that to be a stumbling stone for many people. They didn't even want to hear what we knew God could do in their lives. No, to turn them off. Yes. So when we tried to explain that the deeper goal was inward transformation, the name itself continued pointing toward thinness, thinness, thinness. I mean, it was in the logo, it was in everything. Yep. It kind of suggested that becoming thin was the expected evidence of spiritual or personal success. And we didn't want to do that. It was increasingly inconsistent with what we believed God was asking us to teach.

SPEAKER_00 45:41

So the new name was not just about marketing.

SPEAKER_03 45:45

No, it was more theological than that. I don't see the word thin used in a positive way in the Bible. Um, it really reflected a uh our deeper shift in our focus. We chose the name Revelation within because transformation often begins when God reveals truth to us in the places we have kept hidden or where we've been confused, ashamed, or controlled. And so since he reveals what we have been believing that way, like the counterfeit comforts we have depended on, and reveals the he reveals the wounds beneath our reactions, um, he wants to show us uh he wants to reveal uh a way to be healed. So he reveals the ways we have mistaken condemnation for conviction. Condemnation and conviction are not the same thing. No, and he reveals our true identity in Christ, he reveals his nearness, he reveals the next faithful step. And we found that a lot more people, when we took the focus off of the fin, a lot more people were seeing revelation. They even use the they use the word revelation. They say, I've had a revelation.

SPEAKER_00 47:07

It's like that's it. Well, and revelation, it's not something we can manufacture on our own. It's not possible.

SPEAKER_03 47:16

Exactly. We can study, we can listen, we can renew our minds, we can practice, we can show up honestly, but God is the one who opens our eyes. He really is. He's the one who brings truth alive, he's the one who transforms us. Yes. Uh and the Romans 12, 2 tells us that. Be transformed by the renewing of your mind. The new name allows us to say it more clearly. And here it is this ministry is not centered on becoming thin. Right. Exactly. Not no, no, no. It is centered, though, on responding to the truth God reveals and allowing that truth to reshape how we live. Oh, and and you know what I have found in my life that is I allow his revelation to impact me and I respond to those revelations, that there's choices I make that are different.

SPEAKER_00 48:13

Yes. So for someone who knew the earlier ministry, and we have a lot of people that come to us who knew Thin Within pretty well, how would you summarize for them what has changed?

SPEAKER_03 48:28

Well, the focus expanded, definitely expanded. We we aren't about weight loss and weight and eating. Um, it it also deepened. Um, we moved from placing primary emphasis on hunger and satisfaction boundaries to kind of a broader understanding

What Changed And What Stayed

SPEAKER_03 48:45

of if I'm led by the Holy Spirit of God, he wants to lead my eating as well. He wants to lead everything in my life. And so we do call it spirit-led eating, or we call it peaceful eating. We became more intentional about mind renewal, absolutely. We placed greater emphasis on our identity in Christ.

SPEAKER_02 49:09

Yes.

SPEAKER_03 49:09

Who is God? How does God reveal Himself to be? We want people to know that diet culture and body shame, comparison, and fear are destructive, and we want people to know that. Um, and so we have become more careful not to promise or imply weight loss, that's what this is for. No, we're not gonna use God to lose weight, right? That's what we want to do is tend our hearts and give our hearts to him. And you know, I mean, I've said this so many times, but if I believed God had just five minutes with me, let's imagine Jesus taking me aside saying, I want to just say a few things to you, Heidi. And these are top of mind for me, he would say, you know, this is what's important to me. Do I really believe he would say, Have you seen your weight lately? Have you gotten on that scale lately? Do you see what you ate last night? How on earth could you know? He's not doing that. He wants, I mean, think about what he did. He went to the cross. Was it for me to be thin? No, he wants me free from shame, he wants me free from sin. And so anything, anything. Sometimes the sin that I might be in is condemning myself or others, judging myself or others. So, anyway, we want to learn to treat the body as something to listen to and care for rather than conquer or dominate. So, we've also been emphasizing looking and learning when we mess up, if we slip, stumble, slide, fall, fail, whatever it might be. We're not going to proclaim failure over that. We're going to invite God in and welcome Him into showing us what we can learn. Every sidestep, misstep, whatever you want to call it, becomes an opportunity to learn. It is an op which is a great thing to trade failure for a learning opportunity. Yes. Yeah. We also have begun talking way more openly about counterfeit comforts and the legitimate needs beneath them. You know, I remember when I dared to speak up about um, is anybody struggling with drinking, you know, alcohol? You know, because I knew that a number of my one-on-one clients were sharing, I think I'm drinking a little too much alcohol. And and you know what? What is so cool is the same things that can cure my um turning to a counterfeit comfort of overeating can cure me turning to over-drinking or overspending or over-scrolling or over-exercising or obsessing about my size. You know, I need Jesus. I need Jesus in mind or yes.

SPEAKER_00 52:01

Well, so the invitation became less can I make myself comply? And it became more, can I be responsive to God?

SPEAKER_03 52:11

Yeah, a lot less behavior management and more relationship, less affection, and more invitation, less condemnation, and like you said earlier, more curiosity, less control the body, and more embodied wisdom. Um, because we most of us know the good we ought to do, uh, and maybe less certainty that one practice is gonna look identical for everyone. I mean, is it Romans 13 or Romans 14 where um they're talking about food and eating, actually? It's in a different context, but every person has to respond to their master in the way that the master is leading them. So it's not gonna look the same for Christina as it does for me. Definitely more dependence on the Holy Spirit.

SPEAKER_00 53:02

Yes, yes. Okay, so what has remained?

SPEAKER_03 53:07

So, upshot the belief that God cares about our relationship with food and he cares about our bodies and what we do and how we think of them. Yes. There's also recognition that eating can become totally disconnected from physical need. And we want to begin to try to build a conversation once again with our bodies and what we're doing to nourish them, lovingly nourish them. The value of physical hunger and satisfaction is also still a priority. We want to share that with people, that there is a freedom there. The awareness that food can't satisfy the deepest hunger of the heart. There's only one thing that can. Our hearts were designed for God, and only God filling our hearts is going to satisfy. Also, the invitation to bring our longings to God, the importance of grace that has stayed front and center. Another thing is the desire to help people experience freedom from obsession, from shame, and from secrecy. And the belief that God meets us in ordinary embodied moments, just where we're attending and present. And hello, Lord. And He is there, He's there. And the hope, of course, that people can learn to live with greater peace. We know that. Yes.

SPEAKER_00 54:31

Oh, I love that list. I love that list that you just spoke. So, okay, Revelation Within then is both connected to thin within and distinct from it. Is that a true statement?

SPEAKER_03 54:44

Yeah, that's the best way to say it. We want to honor the roots, of course, and we acknowledge the fruit that came from those many years. We also acknowledge the way God has redirected and refined us, both of us and the people in our ministry as well. We have not abandoned the invitation to freedom, and God has continued to lead us more deeply into it.

SPEAKER_00 55:08

So, Heidi, do you feel that revelation within has now kind of arrived at its final form?

SPEAKER_03 55:16

No. No, no. And I hope we never get so attached to our current understanding that we stop listening to God and being opened to what he wants to adjust. We want to remain biblically grounded. You know, the Bible doesn't change, but the interpretation that God gives me of it in this context may adjust. So we want to be discerning. We want to continue to walk in discernment with the Lord. We do not want to chase every cultural trend or new idea. Um, but we also don't want to confuse tradition with truth. We are still learning, we are still listening, we are still recognizing places where our language may need greater clarity. Oh boy, are we ever. Yes. And we are still discovering how different experiences affect a person's relationship with food and the body. We are still inviting God to show us where fear or pride, control, or cultural assumptions may be shaping us.

SPEAKER_00 56:17

You know what? That humility is completely essential.

SPEAKER_03 56:22

It's totally essential. It is. A ministry centered on revelation has to be willing to receive revelation.

SPEAKER_02 56:29

It actually has to.

SPEAKER_03 56:32

Right. Not revelation that contradicts scripture. It's not on par with scripture, of course, but the Holy Spirit illuminates the truth. He exposes error and he helps us apply God's word more faithfully. That's what we want every day walking with the Lord. And this ministry will be hopefully a reflection of that. We don't claim to have every answer. We do believe God is trustworthy and He has a answer. Yes, He does. We want to keep following Him.

SPEAKER_00 57:02

So, what would you say to someone who was deeply

Honoring The Past And Owning Hurt

SPEAKER_00 57:05

helped by Thin Within and perhaps feels a little bit uncertain about the changes into Revelation Within?

SPEAKER_03 57:14

I would say your story really matters. The freedom you experienced was real. The ways God met you were real. You don't need to dismiss or apologize for the good fruit in your life. You are welcome to carry forward what was life-giving. We are not asking you to rename every past experience or decide it was invalid, really. Right. Not at all. We're simply inviting all of us to remain open to what God may want to deepen. Maybe physical hunger and satisfaction continue to serve you beautifully. That's awesome. Wonderful. Maybe God is also inviting you to examine the pressure you feel about your body. Maybe he's showing you that the boundaries have become rigid. Um maybe he's inviting you to expand your understanding of care for your body. Maybe he's drawing attention to the deeper needs beneath your eating. Growth doesn't erase what came before it, though.

SPEAKER_00 58:10

Right, right. And what would you say to someone who may have been hurt by some aspect of the earlier message?

SPEAKER_03 58:18

First, I would ask you to please forgive me because I know that my message was very much focused on weight. Um I would want to listen to whatever heartache may have come to you. I wouldn't want to rush to defend what we did then or well, even what we're doing now, and I don't want to explain away that person's experience. Perhaps the language around obedience intensified shame for you. Perhaps weight loss being celebrated in some way made somebody feel inferior. Um perhaps your medical or emotional realities were oversimplified or felt like they were. Perhaps hunger and satisfaction boundaries became another source of obsession for you. Perhaps a person felt that if the method did not work, the fault must be hers. And if I in any way conveyed those over these many years, the last well I've been involved since 1998. So I hope you'll forgive me. I'm sorry for the ways that our teaching assumptions or leadership or language may have contributed to shame or confusion. Intentions matter, but impact matters too, of course. We want to learn, we want to acknowledge where change was needed, and we want revelation within to become an increasingly safe place for honesty, truth, responsibility, grace, and healing.

SPEAKER_00 59:49

Thank you so much for that, Heidi. And for someone who's hearing this story for the first time, what would you say?

SPEAKER_03 59:57

Well, you don't need to understand every chapter of our history to join in what God is doing now. And we hope, though, that the history helps you understand our heart. We're not offering a quick fix. No, if you want a quick fix, there's a million out there for you. Yes. We're not no, we're not presenting ourselves as people who have mastered food bodies or transformation. Once upon a time, somebody told me that we as Thin Within were claiming we were the spiritual way to lose weight. Whoa. Yeah, and and I never meant to claim that, certainly. But um, anyway, we aren't presenting ourselves as people who have mastered it. Um, and and we don't have the only thing worth listening to on the block. We are people, though, who have been met by God, and we are people who have learned through both freedom and failure. Absolutely. We have released a lot of our assumptions, and we are still practicing. We want to walk alongside others with humility.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:02

Um, let's go ahead and pray.

Prayer And Closing Invitation

unknown 1:01:04

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:05

Lord, thank you for your faithfulness through every season. Thank you, Lord, that you're not limited at all, not even a tiny bit by our incomplete understanding. Thank you, Lord, for the ways that you have used imperfect people, imperfect ministries, imperfect words, and imperfect practices to draw people toward you.

SPEAKER_03 1:01:30

Thank you for the good fruit, Lord, that grew through Thin Within. Thank you for every person who discovered freedom, grace, body awareness, and a deeper relationship with you.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:41

Yes.

SPEAKER_03 1:01:41

Thank you for Judy and Arthur Halliday and for the many people who served and taught, led and encouraged and prayed over the years.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:52

Lord, we also bring you the places where greater clarity was needed. The places where boundaries became rules, where body size remained too central, the places where people experience shame, pressure, confusion, or disappointment. Lord Jesus, give us humility to listen and courage to grow.

SPEAKER_03 1:02:15

Thank you for leading us into Revelation within. Continue, Lord, please, to reveal your truth. As we renew our minds, keep doing your great transforming work. Teach us to live, Lord, from our identity in Christ. Thank you. Help us, God, please, to care for our bodies with wisdom and compassion. Teach us to eat, move, look and learn in relationship with you.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:41

Lord, keep this ministry close to your heart. Protect us from pride, rigidity, fear, and the need to have all the answers. Lord, make us responsive to your spirit and firmly rooted in your word.

SPEAKER_03 1:02:57

For each person listening, redeem every part of his or her story. Please, Lord, show him or her what to keep, what to release, what to grieve, and what to receive. Remind them that growth does not mean you were absent before. You have been faithful all along. Thank you, Jesus. And it's in your name we pray. Amen.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:20

Amen. Well, we are so glad that you have been here today. So glad. Yeah. And we would love to invite you to join us for our next episode of Revelation Women.